Posted by: kevinfortruth | July 22, 2011

You can reasonably trust a thief but you can never trust a liar!


Please excuse the personal reference…. My mom used to say “You can always trust a thief but you can NEVER trust a liar”.

I always found that saying confusing at best, but I knew the point she was trying to get across to my brother and me as we were growing up.

If you know someone is a thief, so to speak, you can always keep an eye out or you can simply limit that person’s access to your property.

On the other hand, if a friend or a relative is a compulsive liar, where do you begin to figure out if what is being said is true or not?

I am somewhat amused by the HLN hosts who constantly refer to Casey as either a sociopath or a pathological liar. I do not have an appreciation of the difference between the two categories and I am not sure if there is even a difference. I wonder if an email went out from the HLN exec’s to the hosts of the HLN shows about the terminology to use for Casey’s lying.

Jose Baez, Casey’s attorney, beat the prosecution to the punch in describing Casey as a compulsive liar. I am sure he did that because he could use adjectives to tone down the reference to lying where Jeff Ashton might have used stronger adjectives and would have repeated them over and over until they sunk in with the jury.

On a scale, I do not know the order of severity of sociopath, pathological liar, habitual liar, compulsive liar and chronic liar. My guess would be the list I just gave is probably in order from most severe to least severe. If anyone reading this can add clarity to this list, please, respond with your thoughts.

So, how does all this fit in to where I am going with this blog?

Nancy “Twin Mom” Grace, on recent shows, has been focusing on Casey Anthony’s predisposition to lying, saying that we should not believe ANYTHING coming out of her mouth.

So, here is the rub. Last night Nancy enlightened her audience about five “facts” that the jury did not see or hear that “could have nailed Tot Mom, Casey Anthony on Murder One on the death and disappearance of two year old little Caylee, Tot Mom’s only child.” “Damning evidence hidden from the Tot Mom jury all kept out at trial – key evidence that could have sent Tot Mom to Florida’s death row.”

One of the “facts” was info from two jail “snitches” that heard Casey talking about using Chloroform on Caylee at night so Caylee would go to sleep for an extended period of time and Casey could go out to party at night.

Testimony from “snitches” is always considered suspect to say the least, because usually “snitches” are given deals for their testimony – either a reduced sentence or privileges they are currently not receiving. Please understand that I am not saying that the “snitches” were lying. Please read on.

From those two “snitches”, however, Nancy deduced two things – the first being that Casey frequently used Chloroform on Caylee and that she murdered Caylee in a premeditated manner with the Chloroform. In addition, Nancy also deduced that what Casey is accused of telling the “snitches” was the truth. Wow, so Nancy now believes that Casey SOMETIMES tells the truth? Now I am really confused.

Anyone reading my blog for the past month has read my comments where I presented the Chloroform theory as a possibility – no, more like a probability. But, please keep in mind that it was SPECULATION on my part. My thoughts were not based on anything Casey said specifically.

If Nancy considers Casey to be either a sociopath or a pathological liar, how can she “believe” that EVEN if Casey said those things to the “snitches”, why would Nancy believe Casey to be telling the truth – especially if Nancy believes EVERYTHING coming out of Casey’s mouth to be a lie.

Also, even if Casey “drugged” Caylee fairly frequently with Chloroform so she could go out and lead the “Beautiful Life”, the one time Caylee died because of Chloroform would most likely be an accidental overdose and not a premeditated dose to kill Caylee.

Nancy wants her cake and she wants to eat it too. Does Nancy really believe that America is stupid? Does she really believe that everyone watching her show believes all the words coming out of her mouth – beyond a reasonable doubt?

Nancy needs to have all of her supporters believe everything she says about Casey because Nancy has crucified Casey for three years – using what the CIA would categorize as “proven torture techniques” on all her viewers into thinking that if she repeats herself over and over again the way that the SLA did to Patty Hearst and the way the North Vietnamese did to captured American prisoners of war, her viewers would be brainwashed into Nancy’s sermon on the mount regarding Casey.

Nancy serves her viewers “Kool Aid” every night and many of them fall for it. The five degrees of lying I listed above applies, in my estimation, to Nancy as much as it does Casey.

Finishing up with last night’s show, after Nancy discussed the five things that were not presented to the jury, Nancy went from guest to guest to guest asking them – no, encourage each of them to agree that if the jury did see and/or hear these five new pieces of evidence they would absolutely have returned a guilty verdict of Murder in the First Degree.

Nancy also spoke of Casey almost collapsing when Casey saw that remains were found that ultimately turned out to be Caylee. Nancy first turned to Robyn Walensky and Robyn said the evidence could have played both ways – at that moment Nancy immediately interrupted Robyn because she was “off script” and she then turned to Ellie Jostad, a Nancy Grace producer who did not totally support Nancy’s assumption. Then Nancy turned to Pat Brown, a highly regarded criminal profiler, who said that the jury would have excused anything away – again, Nancy interrupted Pat Brown because she was “off script” and she went back to Ellie.

I was getting dizzy because it was like I was watching a Merry-Go-Round and each guest was going around faster and faster and Nancy took exception to each of them – Nancy was getting more frustrated because no one was buying into her new reasons as to how the jury could have nailed Tot Mom.

Then Nancy ‘Unleased the Lawyers’ – Eleanor Odum, in D. C., Peter Odum, in Atlanta, and Renee Rockwell, in Atlanta.

Eleanor said that the evidence should have been given to the jury and let them decide on it but then Eleanor said “as Pat Brown said that it probably would not have mattered much to this jury and you hate to try to second guess….”. Nancy interrupted Eleanor before she could finish and shifted to Peter Odum and he said “I don’t think this would have made one lick of difference to this jury – I think the prosecutors made decisions about what to present – not to present – and the bottom line is that all these pieces of evidence are ambiguous and there is not a confession of murder in there…..” Nancy interrupted Peter and shifted to Renne Rockwell, who said “Nancy, I think the whole case was doomed from the start with the charging decision…. Nancy interrupted again saying “That’s not what I asked you” and then Renne continued “the decision to charge murder one there was obviously a lot of defense rulings that kept evidence out”.

Nancy takes liberties – even when she is interviewing her handpicked guests that tend to act like bobble heads BUT tonight, it appears like everyone sort of, kind of, stood up to Nancy and let their true opinions come out and Nancy looked like she was in a tizzy trying to find that ONE person in the world who would buy into her assumptions.

Nancy really appears to be close to a meltdown – most commonly referred to as a nervous breakdown – she appears to be truly scared to death of being sued by Baez and Casey and she is on a mission to obsessively and compulsively attack and discredit Casey in any way possible so she, herself, can be vindicated for her barrage of attacks on Casey over the years – and especially since the verdicts were handed down.

Again, I am for justice. I personally believe Casey was involved in Caylee’s death – either accidentally or on purpose – unfortunately the case, as presented by the prosecution and countered by the defense, was not strong enough for Casey to be found guilty on the major charges.

The reality of the matter is this – Caylee, died either accidentally, or maliciously via manslaughter or murder at the hand of her mother, Casey. The actually way Caylee died matters because that would determine whether Casey should spend years or decades or life in prison or whether she should be put to death for her actions. I do believe if the prosecution made a more effective presentation and went for more middle of the road charges such as involuntary manslaughter with aggravating circumstances, we would not be having this debate because Casey would have been escorted off to jail – convicted of at least one serious charge – which one I do not know but it would have been worthy of 10 – 20 years behind bars.

Getting back to last nights show – I am impressed, however, that Nancy made it for close to 30 minutes on her show talking about another child – a 5 month old little girl from Michigan who was reportedly abducted by her biological dad.

When Nancy finally started on Casey, Nancy was interrupted by every one of her guests when they responded with compound sentences – partially agreeing with Nancy, yet trying to voice an opposing viewpoint – and each time Nancy immediately went to someone else.

Some of you might be surprised to hear this, but Nancy is not an Assistant District Attorney any longer and if she were, the defense attorney would have objected to her constant interruptions last night. The amazing thing is that Nancy was interrupting her “witnesses” (guests) because they were deviating from what Nancy wanted them to say in unison.

To anyone reading this who truly is a fan of Nancy and feels that Nancy does NO wrong: If you recorded last nights show, please play back the two segments in the last part of the show when Nancy went to her producer and two guests and then a little later when she unleashed the lawyers – listen closely as Nancy interrupted ALL of them because they were not being bobble heads and you will see that EVERY one of them disagreed with Nancy – and they were NOT witnesses for the Defense – they were Nancy’s hand picked guests. WOW!


Responses

  1. “Maybe you have to sit with the past awhile before you can walk away from it”.
    Casey has been in therapy with a psych for the 3 years she has been in jail. They say she is horrified with her former behavior. If she can get stronger- we should hear the truth. One can only pray.

    • Hi Cindy… We all hope that her therapy inside has been productive. If she gets a great payout from the lawsuits they might file against Nancy Grace and HLN, I hope she does some good things with the proceeds – like some kind of tribute to Caylee, also paying off Texas Equusearch, maybe donating something to the Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Also, maybe she can visit shelters for mothers who are having problem coping with motherhood – not that she has to, but it would be a way of helping others and might save some lives in the process.

  2. Hi Kevin: Just sent my new college student son that quote- something for him to ponder during summer sign language & football practice. Loved it- thanks:)
    If you read the transcripts – people put words into Casey’s mouth- i.e “Zanny”- Casey used Nanny- just like Nancy Grace. All of CNN seems to be trying desperately and so transparently ( to me) to avoid a massive suit and loss of face. I also beleive she is guitly of something- and afraid of someone else as well. Liars are horribly insecure- and a dominating person used that against her- many times.

    The 30/31 days issue was closed for me when I heard Yuri state on TV that the reason Casey wasn’t charged with neglect is because “they could not ascertain for sure if Casey or Cindy was watching Caylee”. ( FYI: Not quite the exact quote but close) I know some fabulous liars- but I just don’t see anything in the transcripts of the cell calls made, nor in the pictures taken during that time that shows Casey knows. I feel the “choice” mentioned in her diary was to give custody to Cindy to avoid charges from G-Grandpa’s missing money amongst other reasons- and the tattoo was a symbol of her choice.

    • Hi Cindy; The 30/31 day period bothers me as well, but I also feel each of us copes in different ways to tragedies – whether we are the cause of the tragedy of if we are just passively involved. The whole Anthony family bothers me – that whole story about the acorn not falling far from the tree really fits here.

      I also believe Casey was jealous of the relationship between Caylee and Casey’s parents. As Casey was falling out of favor with them, Caylee was still a beautiful “innocent” – and she was getting the love and attention that Casey used to get from them.

      Also, as I blogged about earlier, HLN and CNN are rallying the wagons around Nancy – it is in their financial interest to do so – but it might backfire – it might just make the suit larger because they are collectively saying slanderous things about Casey that the courts might reward Baez and Casey might be rewarded handsomely for. Again, that is okay with me as long as Casey uses some of that money for good purposes, like a memorial for Caylee, and maybe paying Texas Equusearch for the cost of their services when they came up to look for Caylee.

  3. Hey Kevin,
    Why is it there is only one chance to reply next to each post?
    I want to commend Offthecuff for his attitude regarding Casey Anthony were he ever to meet her. So…..Offthecuff, I commend you! Your post suggests you believe Casey to be a murderer. (?) But that you would abstain from vigilantism against her says you are a fair-minded, decent person. (And, there is that possibility, remote as it may seem to some, that Caylee’s death truly was a tragic accident, and any off the wall behaviors by Casey were based on sheer denial or desperation. I believe there are at least two, to up to five people who know exactly what happened to Caylee. I know I’m not one of those people, so I can’t call Casey a murderer.)

    Don’t/can’t watch Nancy Grace? I found life is a lot more peaceful, and I have less stomachaches if I stay away from HLN!

    • Hi Christy; I am not aware of a limitation regarding responding to posteres. When someone posts here, I can reply and then, naturally, I end up thinking about an added comment, so I hit reply again and voila, another post I write.

      Yea, obviously offthecuff did not drink any of the kool aid, and I mean that in a good way. Some sheeple cannot think on their own and they become part of the heard mentality that would truly burn someone at the stake. Offthecuff is not one of them – a free thinker for sure.

      HLN is not much different than some of these radical church groups like Westboro Baptist – except they make you feel like they are doing it for the greater good. HLN brainwashes viewers. Originally, the only Jim Jones wannabee was Nancy Grace – now their brainwashing has spread across their nightly lineup. I always thought Joy was so “cool” – but since the Casey Anthony trial and HLN pushing all their hosts to rally for Nancy, she is even taking her kool aid to “The View” and praises HLN there as well. Like a bee going from flower to flower cross pollinating.

      I have bee sort of kind of watching Nancy nightly again, but from the vantage point of analyzing her words and her body language and her mannerisms – almost like she is in mind control mode but I am wearing glasses to shield myself from her when I am watching her show.

      Now, instead of getting mad at her, I actually laugh at the ridiculous way she tries to dupe people. I hope she gets sued from Baez and Casey – but only if Casey donates the proceeds to several things – like a memorial in the woods for Caylee – and paying Texas Equusearch for the costs they incurred searching for Caylee.

      Oh, by the way, Nancy almost made it a whole show not talking about Casey or Caylee – but she slipped up about 3/4 thru the show.

  4. I should have said to a transcript of the complete closing arguments, especially on the prosecution’s side.

    • I have searched for a while and I cannot find any written transcripts of closing arguments. I believe they will be released but they are not available yet.

  5. Do you know of a link to the closing arguments?

    • Hi “5”; I found this like that had videos of just about everything relating to the trial, including closing arguements, rebuttals, jury instructions, etc. etc.

      I did not spend a lot of time looking at every post, so I do not know if there are any written transcripts in .doc or txt or .pdf format. Good Luck.

      It goes from day one down to the end including the verdicts and after. So to get to closing arguements, scroll down about halfway with the bar on the right.

      http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6840587

  6. [...] It’s summer in Tangerine and as usual, summers are pretty quiet. But a blogger needs to blog, si? So I’m starting a random series of posts related to the Casey Anthony trial looking at other cases where a murder conviction was obtained. I will try to address “weaknesses” in the Anthony case identified by the jurors [not sure how many, they make me so mad I can hardly watch them] and others who believe that Casey Anthony was guilty but the state didn’t prove their case. The reality of the matter is this – Caylee, died either accidentally, or maliciously via manslaughter or murder at the hand of her mother, Casey. The actually way Caylee died matters because that would determine whether Casey should spend years or decades or life in prison or whether she should be put to death for her actions. I do believe if the prosecution made a more effective presentation and went for more middle of the road charges such as involuntary manslaughter with aggravating circumstances, we would not be having this debate because Casey would have been escorted off to jail – convicted of at least one serious charge – which one I do not know but it would have been worthy of 10 – 20 years behind bars. [...]

    • Hi Summertime; Great post. By the way, if you go back 3 or 4 blogs of mine, and a few others as well, you will read where I share the same position as you. The actual cause is relevant and it could have been accidental in a variety of ways or it could have been outright murder and the actual cause would warrant a specific sentence. The prosecution went for the max and was not going to settle for anything in between. They gambled and they lost.

      I have said repeatedly over the last month that if they had a manslaughter charge in their arsenal all of this would be a mute point as Casey would be in jail for a long long time.

      People are furious with the jury but they are misdirecting their anger – it should be focused on the D.A., Jeff, and Linda. Talk shows are crucifying the jury every way til Sunday – because of either their education, their prior arrest records, their professions, or even how they looked at or did not look at evidence or testimony. The sheriffs dept dropped the ball and it took them another 4 or more months to find the body from the time Kronk first notified them. DNA would have been available and evidence might have been available that might have implicated either Casey and/or her father in the death itself or the disposal of Caylee. There is enough blame to go around but talk shows like Nancy Grace and Jane Velez Mitchell choose to only attack the jury and Casey. Our judical system worked as presented – it was the presentation that was bad.

      Great post… Have a good one. Kevin

  7. I am definitely NOT a fan of Twins Mom, Nancy Grace. She oozes the classic nasty, miserable prosecutor mentality I believe most prosecutors share.
    She is on a desperate witch-hunt for a shred of validation by someone…..anyone, that she really is right, and was right all along. That Casey did indeed kill Caylee, and that the jurors got it wrong. That these 5 facts are the golden tickets that surely would have been the deciding factors for a guilty verdict, but……were kept from the jury.

    But yes Kevin, as of last night’s “Bombshell” screech-fest, there is a bit less cowardice by Twins Mom’s guests, and that doesn’t sit so well. Poor Nancy is frantic. And you are so right! She can’t have it both ways! She can’t pick and choose when Casey is lying, and when she is telling the truth. Nothing said has proven to me that Casey has been a life long liar, any more than it was proven her to be an incessant party girl. Where was testimony or evidence substantiating a very young Casey with terrible consistent problems telling the truth? Teachers? Neighbors? All the societal dictated bizarre, abnormal behavior could have started as recently as since Caylee’s birth, or immediately following her death, of which the cause has yet to be known and quite possibly was not at the hands of Casey or any other human for that matter. Meaning not a murder, accidental or otherwise. I just don’t understand why some refuse to accept the accidental drowning. It could be that Caylee may have been in the water so much longer than when other children have been found drowned. Maybe Casey and George both dropped the ball on keeping track of Caylee. (A truly disturbing concept,….the alleged violations of Casey by George when she was a child, could have continued into Casey’s adulthood, making her a consensual, willing participant. A terrible thought, I know. But there are reports and have been admissions of this type of familial situation.) And what an extremely unacceptable scenario as an explanation for the lack of supervision of a toddler.

    I don’t buy the chloroforming Caylee so Casey could party bit. Whatever difficulties may be a part of Cynthia and Casey’s relationship, they both loved Caylee, Cynthia was happy to babysit, and the Casey playing with Caylee in the videos very doubtfully would have killed her own daughter to spite her mother. There was discrepancy on the amount of chloroform detected in the car. Remember, Cynthia claimed to have used nearly a whole bottle of Febreeze, which we heard in testimony contains chloroform.

    Of course, everything I have just posted is nothing more than conjecture, as are all the posts regarding the Casey Anthony case. Insisting that Casey is a murderer is ignorant. And ignorance is exactly what Nancy Grace thrives on.

    • Great post – well thought out. ….and conjecture is perfectly okay, that is about all we can do. except for the Nancy bobble heads who know all the answers…So, after reading your post, I gather you saw the handful of people who did not buy into Nancys rhetoric. If so, I am glad that someone else did as well. Reality checks and an affirmation here or there helps.

      Something keeps gnawing at me about the Febreeze – that maybe after the chloroform issue came up, maybe Cindy researched cleaning supplies and said she used the Febreeze excessively as an alternative for the source of the chlorform. That whold family does things, says things, and I am not sure which one of them is capable of telling the truth. Maybe Lee. Who knows.

      Well, I am melting down for the night. Thanks for the very interesting post on your part. More to come, right?

      • Yes, more to come! Have a good night Kevin!

  8. I learned from hanging with a certain group of people if someones lies to you they will steal from you , because they don’t respect you. I told this to one guy who had lied to me,he disagreed, and later stole from me. Hope i learned my lesson. :)

    I do not think nancy grace will give it up till someone at least tries to harm casey, i think that is her goal now.

    • Thanks for your comments again, John. You are correct, I was truly not trying to make a line in the sand with thieves and liars although it came across like that. I also realize that Casey appears to excel at both. John, if you have a chance, take a guess on the poll as to when Nancy will FIRST not reference Casey on a future show.

      Come to think of it, way back in time when my brother and I were growing up, the world was a little less complex and thieves were thieves and liars were liars. Maybe it took another 3 or 4 decades before the two careers overlapped. Joking…..

  9. As to your liar and thief statement: Casey was prolific at both. So I don’t know what your mom would say about that.

    Although, I’m not sure if using one’s mom’s credit cards and numerous checks is considered thievery if the mom always covers and never does the smack down. Perhaps that was a normal part of this family’s give and take that Cindy felt privileged to help out with. Maybe it was worth it to Cindy, like a payoff for getting to have Caylee around. That parenting stuff we will never know.

    Amy certainly didn’t like the game, however, even if Casey was promising her a job connection and a future home. Forgery is forgery to Amy’s common sense. Gee, Amy, Casey was gonna say she was sorry. (And probably have her mom pay Amy back!)

    As Cindy said, A liar does not make a murderer, but in this case, the murderer made good use of her already acquired skills of lying and stealing.

    • Well, great comments, offthecuff, except for the fact that no one has found her guilty of MURDER, you are using the term rather loosely considering how the jury responded to the case as presented by the prosecution. Also, I am missing the reference to Amy – really… I apologize in advance for not knowing who Amy is. Please clarify…..

    • Also, offthecuff, I absolutely agree with the liar and the thief labels for Casey. No problem on this end. I Like how you tied those labels to the blog but I still take exception to the Murderer label – as it has not been proven in a court of law – maybe it has been proven in Nancy Grace’s court of public opinion, but Nancy takes a lot of poetic license – which might result in her bank account suffering soon.

      By the way, If Casey were a friend or a relative – immediate or one in your extended family, would you be using the label Murderer so loosely? I assume not!

      • Sorry, I forgot this blog was an anti-NG rant. I don’t/can’t watch her.

        Also, my opinions concerning Casey’s guilt have nothing to do with the verdict. I see the evidence differently. I would never harm Casey if I were to meet her, not even call her names or ignore her.

        Also, just because a person is a friend or relative doesn’t exclude them from being a murderere, if they are.

        • Hi Off; I agree with your comments. I do believe, however, that some people treat strangers differently than they would family. Guilt is guilt, but it is easier for some to verbally attack someone who they are not related to. Also, one might give the benefit of the doubt to someone they know more than they would a stranger. IMHO.

          Thanks for visiting.


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